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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Apr 10, 2014 9:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Though I am happy to get a little more HQ Dead on disc, the "limited" aspect, bothers me . It is like having a book at the library for only a week and them pulling it . I don't have a couple of the bonus discs, when on occasion , I bought something in a store . I would like to have the 75 Kezar disc, for instance . So, I can't have that cd that I would like to own, and would give them some money for .The idea of preserving this music, and making it available sort of gets sideswiped by this "limited", and "bonus" deal .I imagine they need to get as many sales as they can, upfront, and quickly, before their work gets pirated on the net ,but still, the music should be there for the people that don't have the cash at the moment it comes out .
I think I am more understanding of the problems that Rhino, Dave, etc. face, than some folks here , but that doesn't mean I'm always happy with everything they do .
Thank God for this Internet Archive . I wish other music was as well treated as it is here .

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Apr 10, 2014 1:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Jeez, what entitlement expressed here. FYI maintaining the archive, paying for production and distribution costs money. Making the effort to create and offer these releases needs to make money in a reasonably predictable and timely fashion. You aren't owed anything.

In this digital era where the value of music has been driven down to a fraction of it's former worth, to make and sell hard copies in nice packages means aggressive marketing techniques are called for. So to create some urgency and incentive to buy, limited production runs and bonus discs are about the most powerful marketing techniques available.

All hard copy media ever created is limited. So while some steady selling famous works remain in print for many years even decades, 99.9% goes out of print. Nothing at all unique or unusual about that.


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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Apr 10, 2014 2:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Not sure if your response is aimed at me ? "All hard copy media ever created is limited ." Yes , but how limited, I think is the issue here, with these releases . In the bad old world of the record biz, a recording stayed in the catalog till it's sales dropped off enough to delete it (normally) . At least most interested parties got a chance to buy it . Of course, some of those recording were reissued for less money etc. .
It is not like I don't see their (your) point, they are scrambling for ways to make this work . It costs money to do this . I just think their limited is too limited .

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Apr 10, 2014 3:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Not specifically aimed at you, just at comments made generally expressing dissatisfaction with the program.

In the old golden age of vinyl, plenty of product ended up as "cutouts", their covers cut at the corners, and deeply discounted just to clear out the warehouse. Do you remember Warner Brothers "lossleaders"? Records sold below cost just to try and generate interest in other full price product.

We're long past those days. They produce as many as they are certain they can sell in a given time window. I bet that in the past, certain stuff sat around or trickled out so slowly after the initial rush that they realized they needed to avoid that as much as possible.

Dead fans are very very lucky. Most of the major classic rock acts don't come remotely close to releasing live material like this. Led Zeppelin fans get practically nothing from their vaults. Neil Young has trickled out a few gems as has the Who but overall it appears we'll all grow old and die with lots of goodies deteriorating locked up, never to be heard.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 10, 2014 8:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

And I think we, and the DEAD, both benefit as a result? IE, the "lets share it" and we end up with legions of heads and lets see, how many zep fanatics?

;)

Well, I dunno, but I keep coming back to this model worked, and I don't know that the other, penny pinching one, worked better...did they make more money? Doubt it. Did they make "better" money (this is what Jerry et al. were on about during RRecords...doing it "right").

So, like MONTE I do believe the DEAD stood for an alternative biz model, and that it worked...but, I have no problem, like you, with paying now, or letting Bobby change his mind.

But I do think it is a poor biz model choice.

That's my only point; it might be the best now, but overall, I think the model that set them apart was outstanding...

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Apr 10, 2014 8:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Wait, first, are you saying there are relatively few Zep fanatics?

There are many many many legions upon legions of Led Zeppelin fanatics. All around the entire planet. If they don't outnumber Deadheads by say, oh, 10 to 1, I'd be very surprised. But as I said, their loyalty isn't anywhere near as well served as Deadhead loyalty has been.
Check out how many Led Zeppelin uploads there have been at Dimeadozen over the past ten years. And with far fewer shows ever performed.

Respectfully, the "cultivate the fan base" model worked well for many years, but come on, we're talking about a pop CULTural icon and those just don't generate cash forever. Culture moves on. The current state of RHINO/GD releases and marketing is a miracle. They are making releasing multiple 20+ year old (really more like 40) music still work economically. In this current "music should be free" environment that is truly exceptional.

The music set them apart and the model complemented it. Bands that didn't "jam" their material as a matter of course wouldn't have benefited from the GD model.

You can't say "it's a poor model" and then acknowledge that it's "the best now". That's trying to have it both ways. Remember, they have been doing this for a while now. This didn't just commence recently. We are where we are as part of a long continuum. They keep tweaking it to keep it viable. If you don't like it, suggest what would work better and prove it. They've already been running the experiment. Be very glad they have stuck with it, for many such bands, even if they would have ever tried it, they would have certainly dropped it by now, being at the point of selling 14,000 units per release. Jimmy Page, Mick Jagger, Eric Clapton, David Gilmour, etc, they laugh at such numbers. They couldn't be bothered to even take a moment to approve a release totally prepared by others that would put a few bucks in their accounts.

Most complaints I see regarding the releases are either petty or too subjective to matter.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 11, 2014 6:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Thanks--seriously, I had NO idea about zep fans greatly outnumbering "us"...do they buy all the crap all the time? I suppose that's your pt about "laughing" at the numbers...

I guess I am not absolutely convinced, but it's probably because I don't get out much, and certainly "see" all DEAD, all the time...

And yeah, I do actually think we can say "oh yea, it worked!" in an abstract sense, and also note, "oh, crap, it failed" (it did both, on different levels, right?).

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Apr 11, 2014 9:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Led Zeppelin album sales aren't exact, but estimates range from 200-300 million worldwide. Grateful Dead are 10 times less, at about 20-30 million worldwide. The Zep collector world is far more spread around the world and very dedicated, they just have much much less attention from the band.

When it comes to doing business and the bottom line, which is how commercial activity ultimately gets judged by those investing in making it happen, abstract or moral victories don't mean shit.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 12, 2014 6:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Yup; but, the moral victory I was talking about was the notion that "oh, hey we care about our fans, and we don't want to rip them off" and the synergy that built between us and the band, blah, blah, blah,...and, that's why whatever the numbers, WE know we're "better" than any legion of zep fanatics, right?

I have always believed that...

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Apr 12, 2014 10:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Ok Mr. Tell, how are GD fans being ripped off by limited editions and bonus discs? Purchasing is completely at your own discretion.

Don't you get that caring about the fans etc isn't a promise to lose money just to satisfy any level of fan expectation?

And what kind of crazy notion is behind "WE know we're "better" than any legion of zep fanatics"? They love their band, you love yours. You're very fortunate your band has continued to try and find ways to create and deliver quality product. Zep fans are not nearly as lucky in that respect.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 13, 2014 6:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Oh, hey--we're cool...you won this round, hands down. I don't have any prob w the bonus disks, and loved your "realpolitik" ref.

Also, yup, I understand that losing money was a GREAT gesture for us, but never wanted them to go belly up for it.

And, absolutely--I am "fortunate" and that is the simple, crazy notion that our band treated us better than the zep fan's band...also, those latter fans really were odd balls, at least the ones I met.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Apr 10, 2014 11:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Rhino hears you....

http://www.rhino.com/article/led-zeppelin-first-three-albums-newly-remastered

http://www.jambase.com/Articles/121321/Led-Zeppelin-Shares-Taste-Of-Unreleased-1969-Show

Here's the tracklist for the companion disc featuring tunes from the 1969 concert including a 15-minute version of "Dazed And Confused":

Companion Audio Disc
Live At The Olympia - Paris, France
October 10, 1969

1. "Good Times Bad Times/Communication Breakdown"
2. "I Can't Quit You Baby"
3. "Heartbreaker"
4. "Dazed And Confused"
5. "White Summer/Black Mountain Side"
6. "You Shook Me"
7. "Moby Dick"
8. "How Many More Times"

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2014-04-11 06:32:10

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Apr 10, 2014 8:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Yes we are very lucky . I quibble, and fuss, (Deadhead inside baseball) , but I am grateful (ouch) for those releases . And, I mean seriously, what other artist(s) have a site where just about any show form their career is streamable , and the AUDs downloadable in lossless !
Disclaimer: I worked in at Tower Records for 24 years , I was there till the whole shithouse went up in flames (to paraphrase Jim Morrison) , and saw lots of good people who loved music get run out of the business like winos from an Atlantic City casino (to paraphrase Hunter Thompson), and the clueless record company execs get golden parachutes, and go on to fuck up other peoples lives . So I know the old paradigm . I still think we haven't reached a functioning new one . Amen .

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMonte B Cowboy Date: Apr 13, 2014 10:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

re: "what other artist(s) have site(s) where just about any show form their career is streamable (and/or downloadable)...? what paradigm is this?"

excerpts from Grateful Dead's digital media and trading policy 'rights', posted here on The Archive:
- "No commercial gain may be sought by websites offering digital files of our music, whether through advertising, exploiting databases compiled from their traffic, or any other means."

- "All participants in such digital exchange acknowledge and respect the copyrights of the performers, writers and publishers of the music."
How about some of the commercial GD stuff I see hosted on YouTube (which is owned by Google). imo, Google and YouTube are ripping-off the GD (and Alembic and Warner) hugely! Geeeezz, this Tivoli-show video from Europe '72 has an audio track that was ripped from the new CDs of the 16-track masters. Also, YouTube's embedded player for 'this show' includes Google-ads inserted into the stream.

Are Google and YouTube "too big" for fans (and lawyers) to ask them to stop ripping off our favorite band? Are they paying the TV crew, GD, Alembic, the sound crew, Warner Records, and Rhino GDP royalties? Can anyone explain the "rights and permissions" aspects of this? What's going on here?

YouTube's digital media and trading policy 'terms of use'

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Apr 10, 2014 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bonus Discs

Well stated N Hoey.

Terms of Use (10 Mar 2001)